The Honey-and-Acid Creatures

[adelynne]

The monicker, used in Swordspoint to aptly describe one Lord David Campion has been stuck in my head for days. It has been lodged in association with Felix Harrogate, after reading the opening chapters of The Virtu, and it has brought on a case of speculation regarding characters and character archetypes.

Namely, I love those bastards.

Athos was my favorite Musketeer, not the golden D'Artagnan. But I have a feeling that, were I to reread those books today, Aramis would be coming up neck and neck to my troubled gentleman. Likewise, it is the Comte de Monte-Cristo who captures my imagination, not the young Edmond Dantes.

It is never the hero who attracts me, not in the classic sense. Harry Potter with his loving parents who died on his behalf, guided on your typical hero's journey toward the inevitable triumph (though not without proper amounts of sacrifice) is, to me, quite boring. It is, for that reason, I suspect, that while we mourn Ned and Robb Stark in A Song of Ice and Fire, it is Jaime and Tyrion Lannister who hold my affection, along with Jon Snow, who has to compromise his honor to maintain it.

It is easy to be a hero when you're Harry Potter. You might be scared out of your mind, but in your heart of hearts you know you're a good guy. You know that good is what you do, and you know that evil is something you can overcome.

But how much more meaningful is it when you're not said Harry Potter? When you're a kingslayer, a kinslayer, a guy who organizes bum fights, a runaway drugged-up academic, or a former child prostitute and an instrument of your own destruction? When you know that evil you've done, whether it served the greater good or not, is evil you've done, and you struggle to do better anyway?

The odd thing, I find, is that I can only think of one female character who fits into this archetype (Elizabeth Bear's Jenny Casey, of Hammered, etc). Why is that?

And who do you think of?

Comments

[wayzgoose.livejournal.com]

I think of Thomas Covenant. He the tortured leper that Stephen Donaldson wrote who is so convinced that the place where he has been healed only a dream that he rapes the healer for no other reason than to prove that it is only a dream. He can't trust his healing, nor can he believe in his role of bringing healing to the world. What kind of hero is that?

Yet in one chapter, probably one of the most beautiful I've ever read in literature (though that is influenced by the time that I read it and the distance I've come since then without re-reading it), I was brought to tears and purified from all the horrors of my life.

I like to think that there is a point where the archetype is almost denying himself in order to progress to the next level of his own existence. In an instance I change from hating him/her to loving him/her.

[adelynne.livejournal.com]

That sounds exquisitely creepy. What book is this?

[wayzgoose.livejournal.com]

The title of the series is The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. The first of the books, from which the passage I referred to was taken is called Lord Foul's Bane. The series is by Stephen Donaldson and is one of the finest I've ever read. I believe the third book of the Second Chronicles (three books each) is the one that contains the most beautiful passage I can remember reading in speculative fiction. It relates his purging of the guilt of a race of giants in a great fire. It's really amazing.

I've just discovered that Donaldson has begun a Third Chronicles (book published in 2004) starting with The Runes of the Earth. He lists four books in that series. You can get more information at The Official Website of Sthephen R. Donaldson. It's good reading.

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

You might try C.J. Cherryh's Downbelow Station for Signy Mallory (and Cherryh in general), and John Varley's Titan series (Titan, Wizard, Demon) protagonist Cirocco Jones, for the spiritual antecedents to Jenny.

Also, kaygo's Jani Killian gets compared to Jenny a lot. The protag of Chris Moriarty's Spin State has some ugly history, too.

These are the characters I love best, too.

[adelynne.livejournal.com]

*jots down recommendations for subsequent bookstore trips.*

Thank you!

[lareinenoire.livejournal.com]

It is easy to be a hero when you're Harry Potter. You might be scared out of your mind, but in your heart of hearts you know you're a good guy. You know that good is what you do, and you know that evil is something you can overcome.

I'm not sure this is accurate. Harry's got issues of his own to deal with, and yes, he's the hero of the series, but he's done some idiotic things. I don't think he knows he's a good guy. He's just doing his damndest *not* to become what the other guy is. The other guy who, incidentally, had a very similar upbringing and background.

Now, you of all people know I love the antiheroes, but I think you might be oversimplifying just a bit. Edmond Dantès is fascinating not only because he's acting for vengeance, but because he's completely convinced himself that he's acting in the name of justice and the higher good. If you asked him, it's not because he wants revenge. It's because he deserves justice for what happened to him.

And I actually very much liked Ned Stark. I was certain he was going to die from the get-go, but I still sniffled lots when he did. And Robb caught me completely off-guard.

The perfect heroes don't interest me. That much is certain. But I think you might be limiting your criteria somewhat.

[adelynne.livejournal.com]

I don't think he knows he's a good guy. He's just doing his damndest *not* to become what the other guy is.

Eh, yes, perhaps. But the bottom line on Harry is that he can look at people like Draco, Snape, etc, and pass judgement on them. He can, and does until the end of the last book in Draco's case, look down his nose upon them and say quite assuredly "I will never be you." He's got issues, no one's denying.

But he never really has to worry about being Voldemort - not really. You can argue on whether or not Chamber of Secrets was about that, and I will certainly give you that JKR probably intended it to be. But there I think she fell flat, because she stresses the differences between the two as much as humanly possible.

Yes, Harry is flawed, there's no denying that. But he knows, whether because of Dumbledore, Ron, Hermione, Hagrid, and so on and so forth, that he'll never become Voldemort. The most he has to worry about is being James Potter circa his fifth year.

Edmond Dantès is fascinating not only because he's acting for vengeance, but because he's completely convinced himself that he's acting in the name of justice and the higher good. If you asked him, it's not because he wants revenge. It's because he deserves justice for what happened to him.

Yes, but even he wouldn't say that he's going about it in the most legitimate way possible. He feels the wrongs justify both his ends and his means. That's part of why he falls into my "dark knight" category.

And I actually very much liked Ned Stark. I was certain he was going to die from the get-go, but I still sniffled lots when he did. And Robb caught me completely off-guard.

I was spoiled for Robb, but I still can't read the Red Wedding. It's not that I didn't like Ned & Robb, though Ned occasionally grated with the same quick-to-judge impulse that I critique Harry for above, it's that overall they're not that interesting. Note that Robb is the eldest of the Stark children, but he's not a POV character. He's bright, he's young, he's incredibly lovable, but in the end, he's also a touch boring.

I think you're interpertation of what I'm saying is a bit narrow. These aren't the only characters I love, but they are certainly among my favorites, for the reasons aforementioned.

[lareinenoire.livejournal.com]

(I'd meant to reply to this last night, but I decided coherency trumped haste)

Note I did not at any point mention Athos. ;)

Well, think about it, though. Voldemort looks down on people too. Harry's got that sense of superiority, especially over Malfoy and Snape, and that is one of his flaws. Voldemort looks down on just about everyone, and uses people for his ends. I think, in the latest book, Harry begins to show a sneakier side (i.e. manipulating Slughorn), but that will probably be written off as using Voldemort's methods for the ultimate good.

I am, to an extent, playing devil's advocate here. Several of the characters you mentioned are favourites of mine as well (as you know).

Dantès does have a 'dark knight' aura to him. And a God complex, quite literally. No matter what he does, it's justified...at least until about the last eighth of the book. Then things fall apart, as they are wont to do. Really makes me want to renew my attempts to write a screenplay from that novel, simply because everyone else messes it up so horribly.

[adelynne.livejournal.com]

Voldemort looks down on people too.

Well, of course he does. But he's the villain! He's not an anti-hero, or a villain-turned-reluctant-ally or any such thing. He's the ultimate evil of the Potterverse. Harry shares some characteristics and flaws with him, yes, but as we're repeatedly bombarded by Dumbledore, Harry also cares for people, whereas Voldemort only cares for his own ends.

And I'd love to see your screenplay for the good Count.